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Sherman
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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I have a 2006 Escape, and it has 44,000 miles on it. Because of that,
it's out of warranty of course.
However, since last Monday, it has failed to start several times. Then
if you wait a little while, it will finally decide that we indeed do
have the correct key, and the PATS unit will let us start the car.
I called the dealer, and he said to try the other key, which I did. It
actually started 6 or 7 times, then failed. We waited about 10
minutes, and it started. My wife drove it home, where it sat for 2
hours, and then the PATS light just flashed and would not let me start
the car. The next morning, she went out and it started immediately,
and she took it to work.
About noon, I went to pick it up to take it to the dealer to see if
they could fix it. It took about 8-10 tries, then I was able to get
the PATS security light to go off, and the car would start.
The dealer has had it since last Thursday, and they finally got it to
fail on them today. However, instead of working on it while it was
failing, they waited an hour and it was working again. It seems to
quit failing about 10 minutes after the first failure, and then maybe
it will work for a while. The car will never die once it starts.
I have only 2 keys, the ones that came from Ford when we purchased the
car. I have tried both of them, and they have both failed at one time
or another.
The Dealer keeps saying they have never heard of it, and I presume
they will not ask for any support from Ford, so I though I would ask
if anyone here has ever seen this problem?
I hate to junk a 3 year old car, but they seem to not want to try to
help. My next option is another Dealer, but they said that the
original selling Dealer would probably give us a deal since we
purchased it from them, and the salesman said that these cars were so
good, we really did not need to purchase any extended warranty.
Thats about it...anybody seen anything like this before?
Thanks for any info. |
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Ted Mittelstaedt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Re: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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"Sherman" <Me@here.org> wrote in message
news:rjsq74p8k1ooe1goijv3ulj64mckc59kl8@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
I have a 2006 Escape, and it has 44,000 miles on it. Because of that,
it's out of warranty of course.
However, since last Monday, it has failed to start several times. Then
if you wait a little while, it will finally decide that we indeed do
have the correct key, and the PATS unit will let us start the car.
I called the dealer, and he said to try the other key, which I did. It
actually started 6 or 7 times, then failed. We waited about 10
minutes, and it started. My wife drove it home, where it sat for 2
hours, and then the PATS light just flashed and would not let me start
the car. The next morning, she went out and it started immediately,
and she took it to work.
About noon, I went to pick it up to take it to the dealer to see if
they could fix it. It took about 8-10 tries, then I was able to get
the PATS security light to go off, and the car would start.
The dealer has had it since last Thursday, and they finally got it to
fail on them today. However, instead of working on it while it was
failing, they waited an hour and it was working again. It seems to
quit failing about 10 minutes after the first failure, and then maybe
it will work for a while. The car will never die once it starts.
I have only 2 keys, the ones that came from Ford when we purchased the
car. I have tried both of them, and they have both failed at one time
or another.
The Dealer keeps saying they have never heard of it, and I presume
they will not ask for any support from Ford, so I though I would ask
if anyone here has ever seen this problem?
|
You need to call the dealer and ask to speak to the dealership
owner. Climb as high as you can in the chain. Make it clear to
them that you are willing to pay for reasonable troubleshooting but
you expect them to get the factory troubleshooters involved if they
cannot fix it, and your absolutely not going to pay for a bunch of
shotgunning. Shotgunning is the process of getting the customer
to pay for part after part after part, in an attempt to guess what
the problem is. Also make it clear that if they replace ANY part that
you expect to get the OLD part that they removed, given to you
when you pick up the car. (this is insurance in case the new part
does not fix the problem) Make it clear that if they don't fix it
that your going to be calling the national Ford customer service
people and filing a complaint, and that you will not be bringing
your car to them ever again for service, and your going to tell as
many of your friends they are a terrible dealership, and your also
going to be posting your story and naming names on all the online
forums you can find. Be pleasant but firm.
Get all of this out of the way BEFORE they start the game of
nickle and diming you in an attempt to get you to go away.
There are internal password-protected dealer-only and mechanic-only
forums that the general public cannot access, that the dealership
mechanics can ask these kinds of questions on.
| Quote: |
I hate to junk a 3 year old car, but they seem to not want to try to
help. My next option is another Dealer, but they said that the
original selling Dealer would probably give us a deal since we
purchased it from them, and the salesman said that these cars were so
good, we really did not need to purchase any extended warranty.
|
Do not go to another dealer. You have an intermittent electronic
failure which is the most difficult (ie: time consuming) kind of problem
to fix. Obviously because of that it is the least profitable kind of
problem to fix. The dealer will naturally elect, if given a choice,
to work on the more profitable work out there.
My crystal ball says that since both keys have the same problem that
the problem is not the keys, it is the electronic pickup unit in the
vehicle. Since the car has such low mileage my crystal ball says it
is highly unlikely that something has rattled loose. Since the problem
appears to not happen when the car is stone-cold, and does happen
when the car is warm, my crystal ball says it's a thermal issue such as
a cracked solder joint in the receiver in the car, or other electronic
part failure on that board. My crystal ball's advice is worth exactly
what you paid for it.
Ted |
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Sherman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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Ted,
Your crystal ball has told me more than what the Dealer has done. I
felt the same about the keys, and if I don't get something today, I am
going to start up the chain of command to go with it.
To me, it sounds like something has happened in the pickup too. The
Dealer's guy even said there was a code that said it did not pick up
the key, which leaves me thinking that it's something in the pichup
unit. Surprisingly, they have not tried to shotgun it just yet.
However, he did want to start making keys, which sounds like the start
of a shotgun process. The strange thing is that this just started
Monday. Never failed even once before that. However, once it started,
it became a car that was no longer trusted. And as your crystal ball
states, I can't see something shaking loose, since it will fail, then
without ever touching a thing as far as shaking some wires, it will
start fine if I let it sit.
I'll update it once I have something more to say.
Thanks again,
Sherman
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:29:26 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
<tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Sherman" <Me@here.org> wrote in message
news:rjsq74p8k1ooe1goijv3ulj64mckc59kl8@4ax.com...
I have a 2006 Escape, and it has 44,000 miles on it. Because of that,
it's out of warranty of course.
However, since last Monday, it has failed to start several times. Then
if you wait a little while, it will finally decide that we indeed do
have the correct key, and the PATS unit will let us start the car.
I called the dealer, and he said to try the other key, which I did. It
actually started 6 or 7 times, then failed. We waited about 10
minutes, and it started. My wife drove it home, where it sat for 2
hours, and then the PATS light just flashed and would not let me start
the car. The next morning, she went out and it started immediately,
and she took it to work.
About noon, I went to pick it up to take it to the dealer to see if
they could fix it. It took about 8-10 tries, then I was able to get
the PATS security light to go off, and the car would start.
The dealer has had it since last Thursday, and they finally got it to
fail on them today. However, instead of working on it while it was
failing, they waited an hour and it was working again. It seems to
quit failing about 10 minutes after the first failure, and then maybe
it will work for a while. The car will never die once it starts.
I have only 2 keys, the ones that came from Ford when we purchased the
car. I have tried both of them, and they have both failed at one time
or another.
The Dealer keeps saying they have never heard of it, and I presume
they will not ask for any support from Ford, so I though I would ask
if anyone here has ever seen this problem?
You need to call the dealer and ask to speak to the dealership
owner. Climb as high as you can in the chain. Make it clear to
them that you are willing to pay for reasonable troubleshooting but
you expect them to get the factory troubleshooters involved if they
cannot fix it, and your absolutely not going to pay for a bunch of
shotgunning. Shotgunning is the process of getting the customer
to pay for part after part after part, in an attempt to guess what
the problem is. Also make it clear that if they replace ANY part that
you expect to get the OLD part that they removed, given to you
when you pick up the car. (this is insurance in case the new part
does not fix the problem) Make it clear that if they don't fix it
that your going to be calling the national Ford customer service
people and filing a complaint, and that you will not be bringing
your car to them ever again for service, and your going to tell as
many of your friends they are a terrible dealership, and your also
going to be posting your story and naming names on all the online
forums you can find. Be pleasant but firm.
Get all of this out of the way BEFORE they start the game of
nickle and diming you in an attempt to get you to go away.
There are internal password-protected dealer-only and mechanic-only
forums that the general public cannot access, that the dealership
mechanics can ask these kinds of questions on.
I hate to junk a 3 year old car, but they seem to not want to try to
help. My next option is another Dealer, but they said that the
original selling Dealer would probably give us a deal since we
purchased it from them, and the salesman said that these cars were so
good, we really did not need to purchase any extended warranty.
Do not go to another dealer. You have an intermittent electronic
failure which is the most difficult (ie: time consuming) kind of problem
to fix. Obviously because of that it is the least profitable kind of
problem to fix. The dealer will naturally elect, if given a choice,
to work on the more profitable work out there.
My crystal ball says that since both keys have the same problem that
the problem is not the keys, it is the electronic pickup unit in the
vehicle. Since the car has such low mileage my crystal ball says it
is highly unlikely that something has rattled loose. Since the problem
appears to not happen when the car is stone-cold, and does happen
when the car is warm, my crystal ball says it's a thermal issue such as
a cracked solder joint in the receiver in the car, or other electronic
part failure on that board. My crystal ball's advice is worth exactly
what you paid for it.
Ted
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Andrew Rossmann
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Re: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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In article <rjsq74p8k1ooe1goijv3ulj64mckc59kl8@4ax.com>, Me@here.org
says...
| Quote: |
I have a 2006 Escape, and it has 44,000 miles on it. Because of that,
it's out of warranty of course.
However, since last Monday, it has failed to start several times. Then
if you wait a little while, it will finally decide that we indeed do
have the correct key, and the PATS unit will let us start the car.
|
Do you have any other type of RFID-enabled devices? This can be security
cards, another car, some credit cards, etc...
As a final test, when it doesn't work, try separating the key from
anything else, even if that means emptying your pockets and/or trying to
put a purse in the back seat for a minute.
As mentioned, the receiver is the most likely culprit. It could be as
simple as an intermittent wire. Or it may be out of position and cannot
read the key.
I believe the 10-minute timeout is a security timeout done when it
senses the wrong code too many times. It could even be something
involving the communication between the receiver and the computer
getting scrambled.
--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.att.net/~andyross |
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Sharky
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: Re: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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FWIW, I would go out to the parts store and pick up a can of electrical
contact cleaner. Spray the inside of the ignition switch down as best you
can, there could be a piece of dirt or even metal shaving/particle blocking
the key sensor that might be interfering with the signal.
I know you didn't mention anything about aftermarket equipment, but it may
be worth a look. Has there ever been any alarms or remote starters
installed on this vehicle? I had trouble with my '98 Malibu that had a
remote starter installed and then removed when I bought the car. Whoever
took the equipment out, hacked the wiring when they put it back together.
Never used any solder or proper butt connectors, just black tape wrapped
around twisted wires. My car would do the same thing, sometimes it would
start, other times I would try to start it, and it wouldn't fire and the
Theft light would flash for 10 minutes until it timed out and let me try
again. When I took the dash apart and looked at the wiring, the small wire
running to the key sensor had about 3 splices and 2 different pieces of wire
attached to it. These sensors are very sensitive and the smallest
difference in resistance would stop the sensor from reading the proper
signal from the key, which is what was happening in my case because of the
hack wiring job. Once I spliced it back together properly, I haven't had
another problem with it since.
Otherwise, I would start nagging Ford for a replacement ignition switch and
see if they can change the tumblers so you don't need a different key for
the door and the ignition.
Sharky |
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C. E. White
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2006 Escape PATS failing (sometimes) |
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"Sharky" <cl_8ball@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v0wfk.45$nu6.43@edtnps83...
| Quote: |
FWIW, I would go out to the parts store and pick up a can of
electrical contact cleaner. Spray the inside of the ignition switch
down as best you can, there could be a piece of dirt or even metal
shaving/particle blocking the key sensor that might be interfering
with the signal.
I know you didn't mention anything about aftermarket equipment, but
it may be worth a look. Has there ever been any alarms or remote
starters installed on this vehicle? I had trouble with my '98
Malibu that had a remote starter installed and then removed when I
bought the car. Whoever took the equipment out, hacked the wiring
when they put it back together. Never used any solder or proper butt
connectors, just black tape wrapped around twisted wires. My car
would do the same thing, sometimes it would start, other times I
would try to start it, and it wouldn't fire and the Theft light
would flash for 10 minutes until it timed out and let me try again.
When I took the dash apart and looked at the wiring, the small wire
running to the key sensor had about 3 splices and 2 different pieces
of wire attached to it. These sensors are very sensitive and the
smallest difference in resistance would stop the sensor from reading
the proper signal from the key, which is what was happening in my
case because of the hack wiring job. Once I spliced it back
together properly, I haven't had another problem with it since.
Otherwise, I would start nagging Ford for a replacement ignition
switch and see if they can change the tumblers so you don't need a
different key for the door and the ignition.
Sharky
|
Unlike the GM anti-theft systems (PASS-Key / PASS-Key II / VATs), the
Fords PATS does not have electrical contacts in the ignition switch.
It uses a radio frequency signal transmitted through the air. There is
an antenna in the steering column at the ignition switch. It
broadcasts a challenge signal which prompts the chip in the key to
send a response code (via RF). A problem with the antenna or antenna
connection can cause a system failure. As pointed out, other RFID
devices can cause a problem. The Mobil Easy Pass key FOB thingy uses
the same chip as in the Ford keys. You can cause interference problems
if you have one of these on your key ring. Some credit cards also
include the same RFID chip. I've never had a problem caused by this,
but I can see how it could happen. I have also heard of people
claiming that because they were near some large RF source they would
have "flaky" problems.
My best guess (only a guess) is that the antenna connection has been
disturbed.
See:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/tsb/fulltext/show_article.php?tsb=*01-6-2
http://www.bulldogsecurity.com/pdf/Model718.pdf
http://www.sievekingprodco.com/helpspg1504.html
http://www.p71interceptor.com/remotestart/
Regards,
Ed White |
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