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Floyd Rogers
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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<pheonix1t@gmail.com> wrote
On Jul 2, 1:43 am, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote
I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience
that certain parts in BMW cars just aren't as reliable as japanese or
even some american cars.
I like to stick to facts.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand
http://www.consumerreports.org- I'm a member here so I can see the
reports, I can't paste here since they use graphics. But if you look
at luxury cars, 8 of the top 10 most reliable luxury cars are
Japanese! Audi and Lincoln are the other 2. Mercedes and BMW are in
the poor catagory!
These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up
with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous.
There are a couple of things wrong with these statements.
First, you say: "I've learned from experience..." That's not a FACT,
nor is it valid to draw any conclusions from it. It is anecdotal evidence
and immediately suspect (as are all the anecdotes related by we
other posters.) You can't have it both ways: you say you believe
in facts, but then try to elevate non-evidence to that status. Can't do
it.
The other problems are your citations. Let's take the jdpower first.
The study in that citation is for problems AT THE END OF THREE
YEARS. Because correlation and causation aren't the same things,
you *CANNOT* say that BMWs are worse *OVER THE LIFE OF
THE CAR* than the other manufacturers'. It's probably true that
the cars with fewer defects over three years may be better built, but
that says almost *NOTHING* about what will happen in the future.
There have been many discussions about consumer reports and
their rankings. I'm not going to repeat them other to say: Google
for them, and to note that the major argument about their validity
is that they don't *COMPLETELY* report *ALL* problems, since
CR doesn't actually go out and poll *ALL* owners, only the owners
that subscribe to CR. Because of that singular fact, their statistics
are immediately suspect.
FloydR
|
Hi Floyd,
Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows:
car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T
mean that car will continue to be unreliable.
Is this correct?
That makes absolutely no sense!!
---------------
Actually, if you understood statistics, particularly the terms causality
and correlation, you would see that it makes sense. Now, I'm not
saying there is *no* correlation, but that jdpower study is of little
or no value for long-term reliability.
----------------
Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems
in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the
1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better!
Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem.
----------------
I've owned BMWs for 30 years. The old ones had many more
engine problems than current ones. All current cars have more
electrical problems than older cars, because there are more electronics.
----------------
Also, FYI
the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10
years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model
car you're looking at is reliable?
------------------
No, because BMW changes cars every 7 years, and engines
typically every 3-4 years, which totally blows any long term
trend.
------------------
This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots
of problems.
Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12
years in a row if I recall correctly.
Oskar |
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Dave Plowman (News)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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In article
<281fffb8-4731-4b35-aa5a-4efd39d36268@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
pheonix1t@gmail.com <pheonix1t@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a
knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most
reasonable person here!
|
Err, when you post a one sided view expect to get replied to like for like.
If you'd done the most basic research before buying you'd have found BMW
in general aren't the most reliable brand. They are bought by those who
have different priorities. So your post gives the impression of being
somewhat of a troll.
--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Dave Plowman (News)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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In article <486c259d$0$18121$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
Florida NRA SW <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars "E39",
etc. In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart that
shows how the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in
advance.
|
The 'E' numbers aren't country specific. Here's where to find out what
cars they refer to :-
http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/bmw.html
--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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John Carrier
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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"Pete" <noname@nodomain.com> wrote in message
news:g4hefe$oa7$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
| Quote: |
"John Carrier" wrote
Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. Much
less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably should
be replaced as a preventive measure prior to 90K (Mike Miller would say
60).
The radiator is also a weakness as it is plastic. You can buy an
aftermarket radiator that is not plastic though that should last you a bit
longer.
|
I thought I made that clear in my post. Much of the cooling system is
plastic: Radiator upper and lower sections, some water pump impellers (now
fixed IIRC), thermostat housing, etc. Zionsville makes a slick all-aluminum
radiator and overflow tank ... it ain't cheap ... and you can also get it
with an electric fan and shroud to replace the OEM ... quite expensive.
There are some reports of the fan disintergrating as well. The plastic
parts tend to get brittle over time and heat cycles and then cracks.
That said, the E39 is a very satisfying car on the road. But I do wish the
folks in Munich would learn from the folks in Japan about designing
longevity into the secondary systems in their vehicles.
R / John |
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Scott Dorsey
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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Florida NRA SW <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI
the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10
years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model
car you're looking at is reliable?
This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots
of problems.
|
If you look at the actual breakdown of problems, you'll find that most
of the reported problems with the newer cars are relatively minor, and the
vast majority of them have to do with insufficiently-debugged electronic
systems.
While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of useless
electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it impossible to order
them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't think that should necessarily
be the most important think you look at when you buy a car.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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Dave Plowman (News)
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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In article <g4io1s$51g$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of
useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it
impossible to order them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't
think that should necessarily be the most important think you look at
when you buy a car.
|
Only thing I don't like on my fully loaded E39 is the rain sensing wipers
- because they don't work well. But then neither does any delay wipe
system I've had. Dunno if later cars have better sensing.
--
*Vegetarians taste great*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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"Florida NRA SW" <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote
| Quote: |
Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI
the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10
years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model
car you're looking at is reliable?
This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots
of problems.
|
One more thing I forgot about CR & JDPower; because they don't
differentiate between "bugs" and "features", they have lumped complaints
about the usability of iDrive into "electrical" or other problems, which
skews things considerably.
Yeah, it sucks, but it's not broken.
FloydR |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <g4io1s$51g$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of
useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it
impossible to order them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't
think that should necessarily be the most important think you look at
when you buy a car.
Only thing I don't like on my fully loaded E39 is the rain sensing wipers
- because they don't work well. But then neither does any delay wipe
system I've had. Dunno if later cars have better sensing.
|
Dave
The ones on my 730d SE (2007) are pretty good but the trick is to run the wipers
first then switch to auto they will than adjust their speed accordingly with the
amount of rain.
they work by diffusion similar to the way cameras auto focus. the daylight is
diffused by the rain drops and the amount and quantity determines the frequency
of the wipe from manic to .5Hz
Hugh
PS the auto dipping feature is dammed good too..............
Sir Hugh of Bognor
--
I used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect!
Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK |
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Floyd Rogers
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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"Florida NRA SW" <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote
| Quote: |
I like to stick to facts.
|
Oh, BTW, here are some *REAL* facts; the total cost of
maintenance for our E34 '91 525i (recently retired after
minor traffic accident  ):
Date
Mileage
Problem
Cost
My labor
Sep-96
52,447
Brake Light Switch recall
$ -
Sep-96
52,447
Airbag ring recall
$ -
Oct-00
99,699
Radiator cap recall
$ -
Oct-00
99,699
Blowing Fuse
$ 100.15
Jan-92
1,200
1200 Mile service
$ 37.92
May-92
18,000
Inspection I
$ 285.81
Sep-92
22,800
Oil change
$ 24.96
Sep-92
22,800
Minor warranty stuff
$ -
Dec-92
24,717
Minor warranty stuff
$ -
Nov-93
36,854
Inspection II
$ 482.27
Nov-93
36,854
Fuel system recall
$ -
Nov-93
36,854
Electrical/Ignition recall
$ -
Apr-95
38,906
Engine miss/Check engine
$ 134.71
Jul-95
42,112
DME Recall
$ -
Jun-97
59,868
Inspection II
$ 499.44
Jun-97
60,086
O2 Sensor, Coolant hoses
$ 305.26
May-98
70,126
Cruise/throttle cable recall
$ -
May-98
70,126
Oil change
$ 62.93
May-98
70,666
Replace 2 coils
$ 297.40
Jul-99
86,164
Replace 4 coils
$ 489.94
Nov-99
91,032
Inspection II
$ 631.90
Nov-99
91,032
Brake Flush, Belts, Muffler
$ 895.78
Jun-00
96,452
CEL, O2 sensor
$ 395.05
Aug-01
110,016
Inspection I, fuse, Fan clutch, Brake Flush
$ 804.87
Sep-01
111,320
Thermostat
$ 53.88
Dec-01
113,190
Heater core, center muffler
$ 1,553.48
Feb-99
75,000
Coolant Level Sensor
$ 37.03
Yes
Jun-02
119,638
Inspection II, brake flush, valve cover gasket
$ 1,354.30
Mar-03
127,408
Water pump, thermostat, belts
$ 765.22
Oct-03
134,497
Front shocks, ball joints (labor)
$ 443.91
Oct-03
134,497
Front shocks, ball joints (parts)
$ 500.00
Oct-03
134,497
Rear shocks, ball joints (parts)
$ 250.00
Yes
Aug-04
140,904
Inspection I, Tests, speedo sensor, Fuel Sending Unit
$ 598.29
Jun-05
147,693
CEL, O2 sensor
$ 248.86
Dec-05
150,882
Radiator replacement
$ 656.19
Apr-06
160,830
Inspection II
$ 657.49
Aug-07
186,161
Inspection II
$ 762.75
$ 13,329.79
(This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.)
As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will
have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts.
FloydR |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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Let's try that paste again
"Floyd Rogers" <fbloogyuds@hotmail.com> wrote
| Quote: |
"Florida NRA SW" <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote
I like to stick to facts.
Oh, BTW, here are some *REAL* facts; the total cost of
maintenance for our E34 '91 525i (recently retired after
minor traffic accident ):
Date Mileage Problem Cost My labor |
Sep-96 52,447 Brake Light Switch recall $-
Sep-96 52,447 Airbag ring recall $-
Oct-00 99,699 Radiator cap recall $-
Oct-00 99,699 Blowing Fuse $100.15
Jan-92 1,200 1200 Mile service $37.92
May-92 18,000 Inspection I $285.81
Sep-92 22,800 Oil change $24.96
Sep-92 22,800 Minor warranty stuff $-
Dec-92 24,717 Minor warranty stuff $-
Nov-93 36,854 Inspection II $482.27
Nov-93 36,854 Fuel system recall $-
Nov-93 36,854 Electrical/Ignition recall $-
Apr-95 38,906 Engine miss/Check engine $134.71
Jul-95 42,112 DME Recall $-
Jun-97 59,868 Inspection II $499.44
Jun-97 60,086 O2 Sensor, Coolant hoses $305.26
May-98 70,126 Cruise/throttle cable recall $-
May-98 70,126 Oil change $62.93
May-98 70,666 Replace 2 coils $297.40
Jul-99 86,164 Replace 4 coils $489.94
Nov-99 91,032 Inspection II $631.90
Nov-99 91,032 Brake Flush, Belts, Muffler $895.78
Jun-00 96,452 CEL, O2 sensor $395.05
Aug-01 110,016 Inspection I, fuse, Fan clutch, Brake Flush $804.87
Sep-01 111,320 Thermostat $53.88
Dec-01 113,190 Heater core, center muffler $1,553.48
Feb-99 75,000 Coolant Level Sensor $37.03 Yes
Jun-02 119,638 Inspection II, brake flush, valve cover gasket $1,354.30
Mar-03 127,408 Water pump, thermostat, belts $765.22
Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (labor) $443.91
Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (parts) $500.00
Oct-03 134,497 Rear shocks, ball joints (parts) $250.00 Yes
Aug-04 140,904 Inspection I, Tests, speedo sensor, Fuel Sending Unit
$598.29
Jun-05 147,693 CEL, O2 sensor $248.86
Dec-05 150,882 Radiator replacement $656.19
Apr-06 160,830 Inspection II $657.49
Aug-07 186,161 Inspection II $762.75
$13,329.79
| Quote: |
(This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.)
As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will
have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts.
FloydR
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Scott Dorsey
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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Floyd Rogers <fbloogyuds@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
One more thing I forgot about CR & JDPower; because they don't
differentiate between "bugs" and "features", they have lumped complaints
about the usability of iDrive into "electrical" or other problems, which
skews things considerably.
Yeah, it sucks, but it's not broken.
|
It will be after the owner runs the car into a tree while paging through
menus trying to figure out how to change the volume on the radio....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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pheonix1t@gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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Hi Floyd,
I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only
parts costs and no labor costs. However your parts costs come to
about the same cost per mile as my total cost. I see a patttern of
about $1k per 10k miles. This cost is rather high. If you add your
labor costs this makes your cost per mile even higher which only
proves my point!
I posted an E39 2002 525i sport with about 65k miles. So far a bit
less than $6k in parts AND labor. This happened in a time between 45k
and 65k ($6k of repairs).
I've owned 2 hondas (accord and crv), a mazda rx7 and ford mustang.
All of these had MUCH less repair/labor costs at 65k than the bmw.
This is what is upsetting me!! I feel like I've been exposed to
fraud. BMW, german engineering, etc, etc - the best in the world. Oh
great !
Then you see the repair bills by 65k miles (which isn't that much) and
the picture starts to come into focus. It's not a pretty site!!
I have friends who are professionals (lawyers, doctors, small business
owners) who also had bmw and mercedes autos and their experience was
similar to mine - unexpectly high repair bills due to parts wearing
out very soon - compared to other cars. Most will never buy a bmw or
mercedes again. Some are die-hard fans and even though they realize
the very high repair bills they stick with it. After a while it seems
like it's more of a head trip (I drive a Mercedes!! or that's MY BMW!)
JD Powers and Consumer reports only give support to our experiences.
http://nhtsa.gov/
You can also look here for more unbiased information/statistics. This
place collects data from all autos sold in the USA. When the problems
get bad enough, they are the ones who prompt the auto makers for
recalls. A technical publication is one step before a recall. An
auto with lots of technical pubs is usually a bad sign.
This information is collected from dealers across the USA and from
independant auto shops. Please verify what I'm saying by reading
their website.
Oskar
On Jul 3, 11:51 am, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Let's try that paste again
"Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote> "Florida NRA SW" <flr...@hotmail.com> wrote
I like to stick to facts.
Oh, BTW, here are some *REAL* facts; the total cost of
maintenance for our E34 '91 525i (recently retired after
minor traffic accident ):
Date Mileage Problem Cost My labor
Sep-96 52,447 Brake Light Switch recall $-
Sep-96 52,447 Airbag ring recall $-
Oct-00 99,699 Radiator cap recall $-
Oct-00 99,699 Blowing Fuse $100.15
Jan-92 1,200 1200 Mile service $37.92
May-92 18,000 Inspection I $285.81
Sep-92 22,800 Oil change $24.96
Sep-92 22,800 Minor warranty stuff $-
Dec-92 24,717 Minor warranty stuff $-
Nov-93 36,854 Inspection II $482.27
Nov-93 36,854 Fuel system recall $-
Nov-93 36,854 Electrical/Ignition recall $-
Apr-95 38,906 Engine miss/Check engine $134.71
Jul-95 42,112 DME Recall $-
Jun-97 59,868 Inspection II $499.44
Jun-97 60,086 O2 Sensor, Coolant hoses $305.26
May-98 70,126 Cruise/throttle cable recall $-
May-98 70,126 Oil change $62.93
May-98 70,666 Replace 2 coils $297.40
Jul-99 86,164 Replace 4 coils $489.94
Nov-99 91,032 Inspection II $631.90
Nov-99 91,032 Brake Flush, Belts, Muffler $895.78
Jun-00 96,452 CEL, O2 sensor $395.05
Aug-01 110,016 Inspection I, fuse, Fan clutch, Brake Flush $804.87
Sep-01 111,320 Thermostat $53.88
Dec-01 113,190 Heater core, center muffler $1,553.48
Feb-99 75,000 Coolant Level Sensor $37.03 Yes
Jun-02 119,638 Inspection II, brake flush, valve cover gasket $1,354.30
Mar-03 127,408 Water pump, thermostat, belts $765.22
Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (labor) $443.91
Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (parts) $500.00
Oct-03 134,497 Rear shocks, ball joints (parts) $250.00 Yes
Aug-04 140,904 Inspection I, Tests, speedo sensor, Fuel Sending Unit
$598.29
Jun-05 147,693 CEL, O2 sensor $248.86
Dec-05 150,882 Radiator replacement $656.19
Apr-06 160,830 Inspection II $657.49
Aug-07 186,161 Inspection II $762.75
$13,329.79
(This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.)
As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will
have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts.
FloydR |
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dizzy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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pheonix1t@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Floyd,
I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only
parts costs and no labor costs.
|
Try reading again while brain is engaged. |
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pheonix1t@gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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|
On Jul 3, 8:09 pm, dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
pheoni...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Floyd,
I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only
parts costs and no labor costs.
Try reading again while brain is engaged.
|
Nice try, but most people don't fix their own cars!
For proper cost analysis parts AND labor should be included, not just
parts. So the 'I do my own labor' story is fine but the final cost is
misleading - it includes no labor.
Oskar |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: e39 2002, should I keep it? |
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<pheonix1t@gmail.com> wrote
On Jul 3, 8:09 pm, dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
pheoni...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Floyd,
I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only
parts costs and no labor costs.
Try reading again while brain is engaged.
|
Nice try, but most people don't fix their own cars!
For proper cost analysis parts AND labor should be included, not just
parts. So the 'I do my own labor' story is fine but the final cost is
misleading - it includes no labor.
----------------------
He was attempting to point out to you that, except for a few cases
where *my* labor was *specifically* called out (notice the "Yes"
in the last column), the costs listed are for parts *and* labor.
FloydR |
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